Earlier this month I met Cotti & Cluekid in their Norwood studio. It was pretty impressive, built from a converted roof space by Cotti’s carpenter dad at a good price. The room was fully soundproofed with carpet tiles, and had an enclosed vocal booth on one side.

Despite their limited discography (including Cluekid’s ‘Halogen’, reviewed on this site on the 23rd of January), Cotti & Cluekid have been churning out loads of dubplates of late. They’re now starting to be recognised in the Dubstep scene for their quality productions, and they’ve played at DMZ twice. This year will see them releasing a lot more tunes, with their new label –30 in the works, on which they’re finalising a distribution deal for.

When I came to the studio they had onetime DJ Chef collaborator MC Beezy laying down lyrics for some new Kromestar beats. Cluekid admits it’s the first Grime track they’ve worked on for a while. In the past him and Cotti used to MC in the 4N Format collective. Some of the group’s tunes like ‘Gritty Gritty’ and ‘Numbstruck’ featured Beezy. Both Cotti & Cluekid have produced tracks for his recent free Internet download mixtape, ‘My Construction Site’. 

Vocalist Arorah (like the Northern Lights) was also in attendance. She’s done a few tunes with the duo, including ‘Murky Waters’: “I’ve vocalled some of Cluekid’s tunes, not full vocals, more like choruses and bits & pieces because its dance music. I’ve done a couple of Cotti’s tunes as well. But I’m not as constant as these two; I’m not up here every day. I’ve recently done a full vocal tune, [and] a couple of R&B tracks as well. Proper vocals where you can actually let go [and] you’re not restricted. Dubstep can be quite restrictive [for vocals] sometimes. And I hope to work with some other producers as well, but mainly I’m staying with Cotti & Cluekid.”

Later on Cotti & Cluekid’s mate Jack turns up. All in all it was a busy studio environment, though it’s not surprising that they have a high work rate considering the amount of tunes they’ve put their hands to.

Owen: I might as well ask you about your background, and yours in particular Cluekid, cos judging from your Myspace blurb you came into the scene from a slightly different angle than a lot of people have. You sort of came from a rock background didn’t you?
Cluekid: Yeah, originally when I was little, I used to play drums. Listened to lot of Rock from the ‘70’s. Even when I was little my aunt used to be banging loads of Jungle, and I’d be dancing in her room and all that. And I sort of got into Grime when it came about. I got into Grime, hooked up with Cotti and then we used to run on pirate stations. On Top FM, that was Mondays innit?
Cotti: Yeah.
Owen: Is On Top a local one then?
Cluekid: Yeah, it’s quite local. It was just around South London.
Owen: What about yourself Cotti? How did you get into the whole Dubstep scene? Actually, how did you get into the whole music thing in general?
Cotti: Well I’ve been doing music since probably about 1998. I started writing some lyrics to Jungle and Garage and that, So Solid days, and a couple of months after writing lyrics a friend of mine told me that I could make tunes as well. There was a program on the computer you can use, so I got on that & started making tunes since around ‘99. I just got into it from the Garage side of things, buying a couple of records and that. Then I joined a garage group, MCing. We had a singer and a producer. We done a couple of things there, and nothing really came of it. Played in a couple of clubs in Kent and all that, come back to London, and then Grime was kind of kicking off, that was about 2001/2002. But then I got Cubase and started to make some Grime beats myself. And I was trying to get a radio slot. Waited for ages! And then eventually, like Clue said we got a show on On Top FM. [On Top is] still going now, still, and when the station started we was like one of the first ones to be on there as well.
Cluekid: It was Chef that showed us the Dubstep still I think.
Cotti: Yeah that’s how we got into Grime basically, that’s how we got into music. Actually on it every week, Grime radio, making tunes.
Owen: You make that point about starting of as an MC. When you actually think about it quite a few producers have went down that route. Have you got any thoughts about that?
Cluekid: When you are MCing, there are certain tunes that you like, so if you can write beats and write tunes…
Cotti: You don’t have to wait for someone else to hijack. That’s what happened with me as well. When I was in that group back in Kent and that in 2001, I was an MC. I’d fiddled around with producing, like I said from ‘99. And then after I left them I thought I might as well just do it myself. D’ya know what a mean? I can make the beats, I don’t need to wait for them, and I can make what beat I like! And that was it man.
Owen: And how did the progression into Dubstep come about then?
Cotti: I met Chef innit, down Mixing Records, formally Big Apple Records. Yeah, when it first opened everyone used to hang out there basically, and I met Chef down there.
Cluekid: It was all Dubstep innit, now it’s just Grime.
Cotti: Yeah, that was when it was Big Apple, there was a lot of Dubstep.
Owen: I went down there once when it was Hatcha behind the counter. Chef got you into Dubstep…
Cotti: Well he introduced us to the sound. About the beginning of 2006 I think.
Cluekid: Loefah was living at my Aunties, and that’s just how I linked with him.
Owen: Just by coincidence?
Cotti: Just by coincidence Loefah was living at his aunties. We didn’t even know who Loefah was back then, we didn’t have a clue.
Cluekid: He showed us some of his tunes. He showed me a lot of about how to make basses and that, production tips kind of thing. That’s basically I suppose our introduction into it.
Cotti: But we’ve got to point out yeah, before we met Chef as well, a lot of our tunes and that, were actually kind of Dubstep without us even knowing. That’s what draw Chef to us, cos I was in J Sweet’s shop (Mixing Records) and I was playing one tune with a bassline, all that mid bass. And Chef was like “is that your tune?” And I didn’t know him. So he just introduced himself on the spot: “is that your tune?” And I was like, “yeah man”. He was saying, “I’m a DJ on Rinse bruv, I’ll play that on my show.” I was like “yeah? Take the CD, take that now!” I took his number and everything
Cluekid: Me and Cotti were sort of making Dubstep from before, we just wanted bassline Grime.
Owen: And you two were on Rinse at some time?
Cotti: Yeah, we were on On Top first. We were on there for nearly two years, doing Grime and that. That was when we were starting to get into Dubstep. Then we had a guest show on BBC 1Xtra, DJ Cameo. Yeah, that kind of helped us a lot as well. We were still doing Grime but we was kind of getting into Dubstep. We’d met Chef, he was showing us Dubstep, we was kind of making a couple of tunes but not really, d’ya know what I mean. Cos we were still pushing the Grime. Then about two or three months after that Chef was around and I was like “can you get us a slot on Rinse?” And he was like, “yeah man I’ll sort that out man I’ll talk to Geeneus, I’ll talk to them lot.” But it actually took about 9 months all in all from when I first asked him, but eventually it came through and we got a show on Rinse doing Friday’s 3-5, late night bizness. Myself & Cluekid.
Cluekid: (interjects) We started mixing a bit.
Cotti: We weren’t even really mixing then
Cluekid: We were Just starting off though innit.
Cotti: On the CD decks.
Owen: For me, I first heard about Cotti & Cluekid about the first half of 2006. I heard Kode9 playing a Cotti tune back when Crazy D didn’t actually have the fulltime show on Kiss, him and Hatcha had around 4 practice runs, and one week they had Kode 9 as one of the guest DJ’s. I then found out that that the two of you had a show on Rinse. But for me, it became pretty clear that you were making it in the Dubstep world when I heard of you playing out at DMZ. How many times have you done that?
Cluekid: Twice
Owen: That’s a pretty good look in.
Cotti: We were fortunate though; we had only really been DJing for 6 months! That’s not the fact though. I’ve been making beats for 7 years. He’s been making beats for 2 ½ years. That’s what it is; it’s nothing to even do with the DJing. People like Chef & Loefah would say stuff to us. If you lot actually DJed you would go a lot further. We thought, we’ll try, d’ya know what I mean. And it fucking paid off!
Cluekid: The first one we done we was covering Plastician, who wasn’t there. They [DMZ] had heard us in our first booking in Jamm, it’s like a bar innit? (on Brixton Road)
Jack: It’s kind of like the backroom in the middle of a wasteland.
Cluekid: With some big speakers.
Cotti: That was our first booking.
Cluekid: And all that lot came down, Loefah, Poaks, Mala, and Skream. We were just playing all our own beats. And they were proper feeling it. Had a talk with them. And after that that was the one that Loefah rang us and asked, “can you do DMZ”, and we were just on it. Yeah, that was September.
Cotti: Second time was January just gone. 6th of January [2007].
Cluekid: We were put on the flyer and all that.
Owen: So whenever you were playing at DMZ, were you mostly playing your own tunes?
Cotti: 100%, every single tune that you heard at DMZ was our tunes.
Cluekid: That’s how we run it though, we only play our beats. Maybe we dropped one tune or something.
Cotti: We’re just starting out, we need to promote ourselves. We aint trying to be DJ’s, why we playing out other people’s beats.
Cluekid: We’re showcasing our beats.
Cotti: We have to DJ to do that. And I mean, I got myself back on Rinse, cos we had a madness on Rinse and we got chucked off.
Cluekid: And if it weren’t for me… (Both laugh)
Cotti: But I’ve got the show back, and I’ll play other peoples stuff on the show cos it’s a two hour show, every week and that.
Cluekid: Radio’s different from playing out.
Cotti: Yeah, when we play out we got to play out our own stuff, man, strictly.
Owen: So, tell us a bit about the whole studio thing. You’ve just had Beezy through the doors. 
Cluekid: Yeah, this is just where we build the tunes. I spend most of my time up here. I spend all my time up here innit, never really see daylight too much! I work a lot with Beezy, him vocaling and that.
Cotti: When we was hard on the Grime and that, that’s how we knew him.
Cluekid: I don’t know, vocal wise it’s changed a bit since we started doing Dubstep. We haven’t done vocals at all.
Cotti: We’ve given up. We don’t do lyrics for nothing no more.
Owen: I didn’t know you MCed in the first place…
Cotti: Yeah! We can show you, we got mix CDs on there (gestures at PC). Grime mix CD’s with us spitting vocals and everything, both of us.
Cluekid: We just gave it up though to make beats.
Cotti: His heart’s not in it no more.
Owen: Well… who can remember what Mala & Coki sounded like [as MC’s] nowadays?
Cluekid: I’m just pissed off with the whole Grime thing.
Cotti: Yeah but we were still spitting last year, July. And we were DJing are tunes as well, at the same time as we were spitting. Cos we had started making Dubstep, so we would be on Rinse and that, me and him would jump on the CD decks, and by the end of the show we’d be MCing to a Grime tune.
Owen: So what about you boys for releases then. We’ve had one on Earwax. Any more plans? Especially Cotti, step up to the table and put something out rather than cut a dubplate!
Cotti: Nah Do you know what yeah, basically we’ve set up the label. We’re just waiting to get some funds to push out something, cos we’ve set up our own little label, -30 Recordings.
Owen: -30 Recordings, that’s one to look out for.
Cotti: That’s set up basically.
Cluekid: That’s going to be our beats as well.
Cotti: Yeah that’ll be strictly for our tunes.
Owen: What was the set up for 4N Format EP then?
Cluekid: White label.
Owen: White label with a sticker though! What about that ‘Sensi Dub’ that you have on the Myspace then, that one’s good. We’ve had the ‘Under My Sleng Teng’ bassline on Kromestar’s ‘Ghost Town’, now you’ve made a Dubstep version of the vocal.
Cluekid: That ones been mashing up a few raves. (He wasn’t boasting, it went down well a few days later at FWD)
Owen: So what do you think of interaction between the Grime scene and Dubstep.
Cotti: How they work together?
Cluekid: Cos it’s similar tempos innit.
Owen: More in terms of, do you think there’ll be more co-operation between the two scenes or do you think that it will tail off a bit.
Cluekid: I don’t think that they are going to properly interact. Dubstep is going one way; Grime is at the moment kind of standing still. I don’t know really. It’s not serious enough, there’s too many people doing the same thing with Grime. The beats aren’t up to scratch, I can’t see them proper combining. I can see Grime MC’s coming onto Dubstep tunes, that kind of thing.
Cotti: But not to the extent where it’s going to spoil it, d’ya know what I mean, it’s going to be once in a blue moon kind of thing.
Owen: Come to think of it I forgot to ask you properly about the 4N Format days.
Cotti: Yeah, it’s a crew. You got myself, Cluekid, DJ Goliath, DJ Gumma. You got Mr Slickman Party, an MC who’s my cousin (and on his new Rinse Show), we’ve got Ashman. And we’re kind of out of action at the moment cos we’re not on radio or anything.
Cluekid: We’ve almost given up on the Grime though.
Cotti: And as a crew we’re not as tight as we were before. When we was On Top and doing the Grime and that…
Cluekid: We was together every week. But we spend a lot of time in the studio now.
Cotti: Since we’ve been doing the Dubstep kind of thing, it’s been kind of different.
Cluekid: It’s not focused on MC’s.
Cotti: But saying that, Slickman, myself, and Ashman, we’re working on a Grime mix CD. It’s going to be mostly Cotti & Cluekid productions. And we’re going get a few guests on there like Skepta, JME, and some south heads on there.
Owen: Are you thinking of playing out more as an MC collective.
Cotti: Grime doesn’t really get the bookings anymore. I’ve accepted that. You can probably sell a few records. That’s about it.
Owen: Purely a radio thing nowadays, apart from the odd gig?
Cotti: Yeah. Well I see a lot more potential in Dubstep, financially to be honest, d’ya know what I mean. I’m 26 years old; it’s not just about the fun it’s about making money!
Cluekid: I just think it’s better in general than Grime. That’s my opinion. Dubstep people support the scene more, by buying tunes and that.
Owen: I suppose the funny thing with Grime is that because it’s vocal based, there’s more opportunity for music videos and the likes, you would think that that would translate into real sales. Dubstep doesn’t really have that outlet but it still seems to be doing better.
Cluekid: You could do a Dubstep video I suppose.
Owen: Kode 9’s done one.
Cotti: I’ll do one. If I had the money I’d do one!
Owen: It seems that Dubstep is doing better than Grime internationally simply because it generally is instrumental
Cluekid: More people can relate to it. You haven’t got some lyric telling you what the tune is about; it can mean anything to you.
Owen: I suppose there’s no language barrier with Dubstep.
Cluekid: It’s definitely got more potential on a global scale. Appealing to a wider audience.
Owen: Perhaps that’s because Dubstep is more similar to the rest of Dance music.
Cluekid: Grime’s got a younger crowd as well.
Cotti: Who don’t really support the scene. It’s not like that in Dubstep. Whether it’s just a bedroom DJ, they might not even have decks but they’ll still buy records.
Cluekid: One turntable, or just play tunes at their mates house or something.
Owen: How did the Earwax release come about then?
Cluekid: I’d spoken to Pinch for a while. Loefah had a couple of my tunes on dub. I think he just played them to him. He was feeling the tunes. Then I spoke to him, sent a CD off. It took a little while before it got put out there, but it done quite good. It got to number 6 in the RWD Magazine chart. Yeah, I’m happy about that. Just seeing my name on a proper label!
Owen: Well, we’re here in Norwood, the DMZ golden triangle (laughs). What is it about South London? Or in particular what is it about suburban South London for Dubstep? It just seems strange that there are so many producers in the area. That is the 64 million dollar question for me!
Cotti: All right then, look at Grime. When it first started, for the first 2 or 3 years it was all based in East. Anyone from South, they didn’t care. But I don’t think Dubstep is going to be like that, they’re not going to block out people from another area.
Owen: Do you think Grime does?
Cotti: It did, not anymore.
Jack: But it’s all about where people come from. The Grime MC’s all seem to talk about their ends, they’re all quite protective about it. It can be a bit hostile to everyone else, which can be hard for people to get into because if you don’t come from that area, basically they’re telling you to fuck off. I don’t know really, maybe South London is a bit more relaxed.
Cotti: Well you know what it is; Dubstep isn’t based around the vocals so you’re not going to really get that kind of attitude with straight up instrumental producers. D’ya know what I mean. Whereas with Grime with a crew its sort of like a gang thing. But basically, it’s just as simple as this; the people who were really into Dubstep from the beginning were from South London. And then you had a place like Big Apple which was in Croydon, and that’s where everyone seemed to meet up.
Owen: Was it a case of people who lived in South, it was easier for them to get a train to Croydon that it was to the West End to go shopping?
Cotti: Well do you know what, people just lived locally kind of thing, they’d go there and chill out for the day, and people would be bringing tunes down and that, and they just set up a label. I mean, Hatcha was round here yesterday, telling us about the label, him getting it back up and running. Even though Big Apple’s closed and that. When Mixing Records opened, most of the Dubstep people still went back to the shop.
Cluekid: It’s in the same shop, but it’s mainly about Grime now.
Cotti: So everyone started to kind of fade away. As soon as it opened I used to go there, and I used to see Skream every fucking day there and Chef. You’d see loads of people down there. But they kind of faded away cos I think J Sweet’s not really interested in Dubstep, he’s more into Grime so the shop wasn’t the same as it was before.
Owen: Did Big Apple one day have a For Sale sign on it and J Sweet thought, there’s a shop going here, I can branch out on my own.
Cotti: Yeah.
Owen: There might not be people in Dubstep saying, as you said, “this is my gang, this is my area”. But there is a certain amount of South London pride in the scene. Obviously the media have took this theme and ran away with it but even still…
Cluekid: I think with the producers there is a bit of that.
Cotti: Yeah, but most people are proud of where they come from, there’s nothing wrong with that. When you start being horrible with it, like not playing people’s tunes and that, you can start to complain. That’s how I see it basically. I’m proud to be from South. (laughs)
Owen: Well, I have to be brutally honest; I’ve more or less ran out of questions here. So if you two have more to say, now’s the time to say it. Except big ups, they’re too much of a cliché (laughs). No bigging up my Na Na and all that kind of stuff!
Cluekid: Big up my dog.
Owen: Hold tight the blue rinse crew.
Cotti: All right then. Look out for some friends of ours, some producers we’re going to be working with; they go by the name of King Soly & Dub Rogers. Also, we’re probably some time this year gonna set up another label.
Cluekid: For other peoples tunes.
Cotti: Yeah, Try to put out others peoples tunes cos we really want to get into the business side of the music as well. So eventually by the end of the year we’ll have two labels set up. And also, we’ve been talking to the guy who runs Deep medi for a couple of months now. He wants to put out a succession of releases, so that’ll be something to look out for as well.
Cluekid: We’re trying to play out more as well; we’ve been cutting dubs.
Owen: I take it you’ve got a few on the circuit then
Cotti: Yeah, we had Hatcha round last night, he got a CD.
Cluekid: Kode 9 got a few last week. Skream got some bits the other day. We done a couple of tunes with Skream a while ago.
Owen: That sounds big.
Cotti: We done a good fucking tune mate! More than that, it will come out at some point as well
Cluekid: It’s got like a Jungle vibe as well. I liked working with Skream as well, he got things done quickly, the beat didn’t take long to do or nothing. I don’t know, man; we’ve just been cutting dubs.
Cotti: I done a tune with Kromestar as well, Mozart 3000 remix. I don’t know if that’s going to get a release. Maybe a white label. But yeah, that ones getting a good response.
Cluekid: Yeah that one’s weighty. Kode 9 was saying it’s got a kind of Hip Hop subbyness to it. Yeah, we’re looking to do an album as well.
Cotti: A co-production one, and we’re going to make an album with a difference- every tune a co-production between ourselves. Maybe featuring some other people as well. 
Cluekid: We’ve got Kromestar, maybe Skream or someone like that.
Owen: What do you think about all these Dubstep albums coming out? Do you think that’s a good development?
Cotti: Of course.
Cluekid: Yeah definitely, people expressing themselves properly, doing there own thing. I’m feeling Skream’s album, there’s some proper bangers on there.
Cotti: It’s a good thing man cos its paving the way for us. And I just think it’s about trying to get the music out there to other people, and not just trying to keep it in the Dubstep scene and keeping it closed. You should try to spread it out as far as possible.
Cluekid: It’s important that the music changes, it doesn’t just stay one sound, cos if it stays one sound it’ll eventually get boring. It needs to keep doing what it’s doing basically, keep progressing with new sounds coming in, new producers. You’ve got a lot of different angles. You’ve got the jump up, half-step, dubby tunes, minimal…
Cotti: Can I say something as well? We’re 90% sure the first release on –30 recordings is going to be [Arorah’s] ‘Murky Waters’.
Owen: What does -30 actually mean?
Cotti: We’re just cold man!

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Cluekid’s ‘Halogen’/ ‘Down and Dirty’ release for Earwax Records is still available in some shops.

4N Format’s ‘4N Exchange’ EP (with 4 Grime instrumentals from Cotti & Cluekid) is available in Mixing Records (http://www.mixingrecords.com/) as is the 4N Format Mix CD from 2006.

Cotti & Cluekid’s ‘Sensi Dub’ will emerge on White Label in March or early April. I’ll put a post up when it touches down.

Catch Cotti every Monday night/ Tuesday Morning, 3-5 on http://rinse.fm

-30 Records: http://www.myspace.com/minus30dubstep
Cotti: www.myspace.com/cot4n
Cluekid: www.myspace.com/cluekid
Arorah: http://www.myspace.com/arorahvocals  &  http://www.arorah.funtigo.com/?cr=1&rfm=y
Beezy: http://www.myspace.com/beezymc Beezy features in Martin Clark/ Blackdown’s February Pitchfork article: http://www.pitchforkmedia.com He also did an interview with DJ Darkside on Rinse FM. It’s on the http://getdarker.com site.
4N Format: http://www.myspace.com/foreignformat
Slickman AKA Mr Party: http://www.myspace.com/slickmanparty
Ashman: http://www.myspace.com/lilashman
King Soly: http://www.myspace.com/kingsoly1
Dub Rogers: http://www.myspace.com/dubrogerzz